Curse

Xpl0iter · Aug 14, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

@spike
Not to be blunt my friend,
<=--- 4.5 million experience ele, and i think eles are pathetic in their current state for damage dealing purposes in high level areas.
I have done 4 man farming in sorrows right after when AOE update took place, just to prove that an ele can still do sorrows without the help of a necro to inflict damage or interuption.
I see no point of you continuing your silly arguments in a thread which you don't seems to belong to.
Not being rude, i can tell you off the bat, your being an average ele, and this is one of the reason why we see so many elementalists running arround, Just like Ensign said, Like Cockroaches.
I wish not many people would play ele, just like not many people play mesmers. Only a good one can handle that mesmer profession. Casting all skills makes no sense.
In Last, OB FLAME DOES NOT DO ENOUGH damage when your dealing with exhaustion!!!
Forgod's Sake, read every one else. So many people are flaming you. Don't you think there is a reason for them to do so?

@Cynn,
i Dont care what happens to dervish. As for what i care, they can go to hell.
For all i care, i have posted alot of times in last few months to deal with energy storage attribute, and quite frankly, i don't think it is going to happen any time soon. With new professions coming, ANET is way more focused on those new chars than fixing the current ones. Ofcourse, new chars needs to be good to make a good sell of an expansion.

As for energy Attribute, lets say:
Attunements Recharge is 25 seconds, Give 33-60% energy back.
Better Regeneration of Energy storage. 6 or 7 regen i would say?
Non Stackable seems fine to me.

@Scooba_Steve
Lets read the very first post of this thread and pay attention this time

I am not being rude to you though, just being blunt that you need to read them all.
Hint: Your wasting another skill slot with something that was not very useful.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 14, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

As for energy Attribute, lets say:
Attunements Recharge is 25 seconds, Give 33-60% energy back.
Better Regeneration of Energy storage. 6 or 7 regen i would say?
Non Stackable seems fine to me.

The extra pips (as i have already said) would just make elementalist the best primary professions, we will see tons of E/Me mesmer, E/N necro; E/Mo monk but it wont help eles as real eles.

I echo your proposal of attunements since i have asked the same: more % back and less recharge. My call is to have the 83% of energy back at very high attributes, the same amount when using twin attunements, and 20 secs recharge. 50% back on attunements would be enough (and making them non-stackable of course for balance) and with this extra feature:

Each Energy storage attribute point should give you 2% of extra damage when using elemental magic (just ele magic) and extra 2% of energy back.

In that case 50 + (2x12) = 74, 50 + (2x16) = 82, not bad, and in that way we free the elite slot

frojack · Aug 14, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

Each Energy storage attribute point should give you 2% of extra damage when using elemental magic (just ele magic) and extra 2% of energy back.

In that case 50 + (2x12) = 74, 50 + (2x16) = 82, not bad, and in that way we free the elite slot

Interesting idea. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt if this was 'locked' to elementalist skills either (similar to how a lot of people think Expertise 'should' work). This would promote more 'elementalists' rather than secondary wannabe's like you pointed out.

Incidentally, for those who believe otherwise, damage is also a huge concern. The expense of running an elementalist is high enough as it is, if I ever manage to get off a spell (interruption, knockdown, dazed, e-denial, death) I'd at least like it to do 'some' damage.
The lack of non-removable defense is pitiful also. To rub the elemental nose in it further, these skills actually pale in comparison to the same corresponding skill in other classes. Skills that actually can't be removed. One could, at a stretch, argue that they should actually be more effective because of their fragile nature. Though arguably at the same time, since most of these belong to the physical classes, they have a right to be superior.

Some of them could do with a look at however...

(at 16 per attribute)

Magnetic Aura: 21 second (25 modded) duration, 60 second recharge.

Way too long in both duration and recharge. Too vulnerable to stripping. Proposed change...

Magnetic Aura: 15 second (18 modded) duration, 30 second recharge.

Not overpowered considering Rangers will still destroy you as this only works on melee. Plus everyone and their mum packs enchantment removal these days.

Sliver Armour: 11 second (13 modded) duration, 30 second recharge.

Awesome skill. No change in recharge needed really since it has a nice great secondary effect. I would however change the 37 earth damage, to just straight 'damage'. It is afterall supposed to be a deterrent to people pummeling your face in.

Armor of Frost:
Enchantment. For 10...36 (43 modded) seconds, you gain +40 armor against physical damage, but -24 armor against fire damage. Armor of Frost ends if you use any Fire Magic. 45 second Recharge

Ok ability. Has a built in 'gimp' mechanism. Duration is again silly also. Considering it already has a disadvantage, I propose...

Armor of Frost:
Skill. For 5...20 seconds, you gain +40 armor against physical damage, but -24 armor against fire damage. Armor of Frost ends if you use any Fire Magic or melee attack. 30 second Recharge

Not really over-powered. All you need is a fire hilt/string/tang/wand and this ele will suffer greatly. An easy counter. A risky choice.

Armor of Mist:
Enchantment. For 8...21 (25 modded) seconds, you gain +10...34 armor and move 33% faster. 30 second Recharge

Good skill. No change other than the ability to outlast it's recharge at 16 water.

Armor of Mist:
Enchantment. For 10...36 (43 modded) seconds, you gain +10...34 armor and move 33% faster. 30 second Recharge

Runners heaven I know, but it is still a fragile as any enchantment.

(at 16)

All the Conjure enchantments: 10 energy. 60 (72 modded) second duration. If you're wielding a 'X' weapon, your attacks strike for an additional 1...17 'X' damage. 60 second recharge

These really only benefit other classes. Plus the duration/recharge is too long. I would up the damage, and shorten the duration...

I]All the Conjure enchantments: 15 energy. 11 (13 modded) second duration. If you're wielding a 'X' weapon, your attacks strike for an additional 1...25 'X' damage. 15 second recharge[/I]

This would make it more useful to elementalists (damage, cover enchant) and very powerful for other classes if they can manage the energy cost. Still not 100% sure about this one (barrage, frenzy, Tiger's Fury etc.) but you get the idea...

Obsidian Flesh: 10 energy. For 8...21 seconds, you gain +20 armor and cannot be the target of enemy Spells, but move 50% slower. 30 second recharge

This a delicate one but since enchantment removal seems to be the new black, the 50% slower speed gimp is not really needed. The armour bonus could also increase.

Obsidian Flesh: 20 energy. For 8...21 (25 modded) seconds, you gain +40 armor and cannot be the target of enemy Spells. 40 second recharge

Maybe a little over-powered (pve implications noted) but this skill is an Elite. In pvp it is a gimmick at best.

Ira Blinks · Aug 14, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

frojack
i think you trying to make ele enchantments more like warrior staces and I don't really like that. Yes, stances take on average 15 seconds more to rechage (horrific magnetic and swirling auras aside), BUT... stances take no time to cast. It means you can apply it at any moment while running/casting/attacking, i.e. exactly when you need them. While enechantments has to be precast, which effectively reduces their usefull duration time by quiet a bit. Also recasting protective enchantments when being attacked means you can be easily interrupted.

What I'm trying to say is that reducing recharge and duration on protective enchantments is actually BAD thing. Ele enchantments are already way to complicated to get on you when you need them most. And that is the biggest problem with their usability. You see warrior charging on you, you cast something on yourself, by the time you done he is already pounding on you. Situation with assasins and rangers is even worse...

If you want to reduce duration, you'll have to reduce cast time, which I really doubt will happen.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 14, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Something i wanna share...

I just made a Mesmer and when i met Vassar, the mesmer trainer at Foible's Fair in Pre-Sear, he told me this:

"Elementalists may frighten lackwits with no greater concept of combat than striking someone with an oversized mallet, but any Mesmer worth his salt is far a greater threat than a robed bufoon who likes to play with fire... I wll teach you a few skills [he gave me Backfire] that should help you dispatch them far better than the brute force an Elementalist would employ. Then you will know what it is like to wield real power".

frojack · Aug 14, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

frojack
i think you trying to make ele enchantments more like warrior staces and I don't really like that. Yes, stances take on average 15 seconds more to rechage (horrific magnetic and swirling auras aside), BUT... stances take no time to cast. It means you can apply it at any moment while running/casting/attacking, i.e. exactly when you need them. While enechantments has to be precast, which effectively reduces their usefull duration time by quiet a bit. Also recasting protective enchantments when being attacked means you can be easily interrupted.

What I'm trying to say is that reducing recharge and duration on protective enchantments is actually BAD thing. Ele enchantments are already way to complicated to get on you when you need them most. And that is the biggest problem with their usability. You see warrior charging on you, you cast something on yourself, by the time you done he is already pounding on you. Situation with assasins and rangers is even worse...

If you want to reduce duration, you'll have to reduce cast time, which I really doubt will happen.

An excellent point. I can understand the problem of cast time well enough see how these kind of changes might hurt. However, getting stripped and having to wait a further 30+ seconds to use whatever it is again is far more painful. Besides I don't see why dropping the cast time of most of these to 1/4 or 3/4 second casts would be a problem.

Armour of Earth is a good example. A defence enchantment that works quite well with this sort of cast time. Admittedly if a ranger targets you for constant interruption, your quite possibly screwed, but then that's the meta game.

Magnetic Aura actually has a 1/4 second cast already. Obsidian Flesh and Sliver Armour, with my changes, should be interruptible. They are too powerful not to be.

Armour of Frost, with my change, would become insta' cast. Armour of Mist should at the most be 1 second. Swirling Aura should be 1/4 second, like the crappy Mirror of Ice.

I'm not going to even talk about attunements. Just, no...

EDIT:
The warrior/ranger point: They should really be superior anyways. Insta' casts are their playground. The fact that stances can't be stacked is another foible they have to contend with. Plus they can be removed also. Albeit with only a few skills.

Ira Blinks · Aug 14, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Armour of Earth is a good example. A defence enchantment that works quite well with this sort of cast time. Admittedly if a ranger targets you for constant interruption, your quite possibly screwed, but then that's the meta game.

ugh so? does the metagame says an ele should always lose to a ranger? Defensive skills should be... umm.. defensive, and not another way for enemy to deal more damage to you.
On a side note Armor of Earth is pretty bad example as it is actually pretty good skill due to it having duration twice as long as it's recharge time.

Quote:

Obsidian Flesh and Sliver Armour, with my changes, should be interruptible. They are too powerful not to be.

err... did i miss something in your post?

Quote:

Armour of Frost, with my change, would become insta' cast. Armour of Mist should at the most be 1 second. Swirling Aura should be 1/4 second, like the crappy Mirror of Ice.

again, you not saying that...

Ensign · Aug 14, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I don't know where these ridiculous buffs to the attunements came from, but they're really just making people look silly. If you don't understand that 83% energy returned from an attunement is retardedly good, please stop posting.

Extra energy for the profession doesn't matter, because you need good spells to cast with all that energy. If those don't exist, all you're doing is encouraging people to use a secondary with your emanagement. People use the good spells with power emanagement already - it's just that very few of those skills are DDs.

A lot more emanagement skills would be good for the elementalist - skills that return large chunks of energy, not merely make things more efficient. The one big benefit of energy storage on energy management is that it makes it more flexible, more able to absorb big chunks of energy. Unfortunately as things stand, the elementalist is anemic when it comes to non-elite emanagement (in fairness, every profession save mesmer is). Changing that around would make energy storage more valuable as a primary.

As for the skills? They just need to not suck. Deep Freeze is awesome. It's possible to make more skills on that power level. They just have to do it.

Peace,
-CxE

Hella Good · Aug 14, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I've said this before- better nrg management will pretty much solve most what's wrong with Eles. Inbetween a large nrg pool and skills that make that nrg pool sustainable, Eles should be able to accommodate their better skills. E-management with no exhaustion is more than called for.

SnipiousMax · Aug 14, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

<snip>

I really like the list of changes you proposed awhile back. I'm gonna have to look it up and link it to this thread.

<edit>

It's this post here.

Particularly the changes to the AoE spells.

Phrozenflame · Aug 14, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Ok as far as HA type of pvp is concerned, I dont take any sort of attunments...Channeling is great

...thats for someone who talked about non-elite managment.. a pvp tainted warder has ZERO e-managment skills...then your only e-management is your own skills

..trust me...65+ nrg with 4 pips is good enoough with what you are doing...if you want to spam 25 nrg skills like anything....you know that would make elementalists tooo powerfull? Elementalists are great and they do great damage...you will forget ss nuke yellow numbers when you see tiple meteor shower yellow numbers

Cynn Evennia · Aug 15, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't know where these ridiculous buffs to the attunements came from, but they're really just making people look silly. If you don't understand that 83% energy returned from an attunement is retardedly good, please stop posting.

The point is that as it is now you need two slots, elite included, to get the 80% of energy back (my bad ive said 83 but its 80). In several cases you add Aura of Restoraton as a cover enchant due to the fragility of the attunements (i.e. easily removed, long recharge times)and to get some healing. The proposals here try to get the same rebate, 80%, but without using twin attunements, and to make attunements less fragile, so we can free the elite slot and maybe the Aura slot.

*sigh* I had a better concept of you...

Nevertheless, the link of SnipiousMax is interesting

Evilsod · Aug 15, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I really like the list of changes you proposed awhile back. I'm gonna have to look it up and link it to this thread.

<edit>

It's this post here.

Particularly the changes to the AoE spells.

Just had a look at that post too. Some good ideas in it. However the changes to the Water Line would make Ice Imps possibly the most lethal enemy in the game and make Mhago Hydra kill henchman in seconds (half the time it takes them now).

The change to Meteor Shower is taking it a bit far. Imo that is a PvE skill, it has 0 place in PvP or GvG, there is nothing wrong with using Meteor Shower + Rodgorts Invocation + Fireball in PvE. Not every skill has to be viable in PvP (look at the arc of Broadhead Arrow for christ sake!).

I would like to see the DoT AoE skills do there effect on each pulse, as it is Eruption, Searing/Tenai's Heat are all excellent ways to waste 25 energy. The only time i've found the latter 2 useful was when i brought every single DoT AoE the fire line had w/ Dual Attunements for an alliance tirp through Tahnnakai. They were extremely powerful on enemies that got stuck on top of them.

exiled mat · Aug 15, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

seeming as it is we have three choises:

1 buff the energy management so that we can work as a machinegun, to get on par with a warrior or such. (can come in the forms of unremovable attunements or a better energy storage attribute power)

2 buff the damage so that we have a good reason to stand around waiting for energy: a glass cannon type of character, you fire with all your might, but are very fragile after it.

3 we leave them as they are and watch them die out in the upcoming chapters......

Xpl0iter · Aug 16, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

we seems to have been going for the third one quite frankly.

LiamR · Aug 17, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

The dervish can easily be stopped by a water ele. A whole pve mob can be stoppd. Watch them go 66% slower for 10+ seconds.. then cast another spell and keep watching. The only counter to this is hex removal [Which ive never seen in pve] or shadow stepping [which cannot be done with a dervish]. Even in pvp, a monk normally only carries one hex removal, if any.

Ensign · Aug 17, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

The point is that as it is now you need two slots, elite included, to get the 80% of energy back (my bad ive said 83 but its 80).

The point is that non-elite energy management skills on recharges that make them non-trivial to fight with enchantment removal should not net you 16+ pips of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The change to Meteor Shower is taking it a bit far.

I agree, currently I'm thinking a 3s cast time + hit on the first meteor would be more reasonable - the AoE should be left alone. Putting a larger AoE on that thing would be deadly. But as is the skill is largely wasted because it's easy to get out of a 156 AoE before the first damage even lands.

Maelstrom - this is from back when it had a four second cast time. I think the two second cast time was a stronger change, but the skill is still too expensive for the effect. I'd suggest dropping it to 15 energy (keeping exhaustion), and perhaps shaving a little bit off the recharge as well.

Besides a few tweaks to existing skills (I'd like to see another second on Immolate, the recharge on Lightning Strike come down to 2s, Enervating to 5s, etc), the big change that's been sitting on my mind recently was taking the casting time off of Glyphs completely. A little bit of rebalancing would need to be done (thinking specifically of Glyph of Sacrifice / Essence), but removing the time costs from glyphs would make them a strong vehicle for elementalist metamagic.

Oh, and I generally ignore PvE concerns. My stance is that PvE is so broken that worries about skills with normal uses being overpowered there are downright laughable.

Peace,
-CxE

Xpl0iter · Aug 17, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Ensign, how many hits were you suggesting for Meteor Shower? 4 or so if i recall?
Since my english is not fluent, could u kindly explain the very last paragraph of your post?

Symbol · Aug 17, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Besides a few tweaks to existing skills (I'd like to see another second on Immolate, the recharge on Lightning Strike come down to 2s, Enervating to 5s, etc), the big change that's been sitting on my mind recently was taking the casting time off of Glyphs completely. A little bit of rebalancing would need to be done (thinking specifically of Glyph of Sacrifice / Essence), but removing the time costs from glyphs would make them a strong vehicle for elementalist metamagic.

If you remove the casting time from glyphs entirely, would they still have an aftercast?

I like the idea of LS with a 2s recharge. That makes it the spammable shock arrow should have been. Maybe attach a secondary effect to shock arrow to make it more attractive? Or make it a LS clone with a .5sec cast time (to compensate for being a projectile).

frojack · Aug 18, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

ugh so? does the metagame says an ele should always lose to a ranger? Defensive skills should be... umm.. defensive, and not another way for enemy to deal more damage to you.
On a side note Armor of Earth is pretty bad example as it is actually pretty good skill due to it having duration twice as long as it's recharge time.

err... did i miss something in your post?

again, you not saying that...

Eh? What post were you reading? It doesn't sound like you read mine. I usually wouldn't bother but let's 'fix' some of those misconceptions...

Firstly, the ranger thing; A Ranger spec'ed out to interrupt and daze will 'own' a caster 70-80% of the time, 1 on 1. That's just the way it is (at least in my experience). Whether or not that should be the case is something I am neither concerned about, or even mentioning anywhere in any of my posts. It's just the 'way it is'. That's what I meant by 'meta-game'. It even makes a little sense if you look at it from a scissors-paper-stone viewpoint.

Oh and on a side note, concerning my Armour Of Earth comments, you need to go back read the post again. Carefully this time. You voiced your concern about the cast time of these enchantments. I proposed shorter casts. I brought up Armour of Earth as..

Quote:

... a good example. A defence enchantment that works quite well with this sort of cast time...

The same for Magnetic Aura in terms of cast time. Any of this sinking in? 1/4 and 3/4 second casts are not the easiest things to interrupt. In fact the former can quite comfortably be done while standing in Maelstrom (Vengeful Weapon).

Obsidian Flesh and Sliver Armour (with my changes):
You most certainly did miss something. You claimed that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Also recasting protective enchantments when being attacked means you can be easily interrupted.

With the need to re-cast more frequently, interruption is a distinct possibility. Especially with a 1 second cast time. However, with my change to Sliver Armour (armour ignoring damage) it would be far too powerful (in the current game) for it to not be. 37 damage mounts up really really quickly, especially when multiple being targeted by multiple attacks. If you know anything about Vengeful farming, you'll know what I mean.

Obsidian Flesh: Without the speed de-buff, and an extra 20 armour (and admittedly a longer recharge) a 1/4 or 3/4 second cast is unthinkable. Even a 1 second cast is debateable. To be free from offensive spells and have +40 armour is a dream. Let me put that into perspective.
40 armour is the difference between getting hit for around 300 damage or 100 damage from a level 29 Bladed Aatxe. The damage is still ridiculous but a huge reduction. Try it yourself. It's amazing to see.
Basically, with this change the Flesh provides the most complete defence (barring removal) an elementalist could have while it's up. It's probably over-powered, but I made that assertion already...

About the insta-cast thing. I clearly stated Armour of Frost would become a 'skill'. Nearly all skills have zero cast-time. The Exceptions would be stuff like Flourish(why?), Shove, Palm Strike, touch skills in general, interrupts etc. Admittedly I didn't spell it out and I take full responsibility for the lack of hand-feeding.

Basically my ideas about the defence skills, are fundamentally a way to get more use out of them. Most 'engagements' (not fights, the initial clash/re-clash) don't last very long. In both PvE and PvP. This is especially true for the elementalist. You'll probably have spent a huge chunk of your energy and need to recharge that as well as your skills for a short period.

With shorter durations and shorter recharges, while you put your spells down, you could allow yourself to be protected more frequently in some way, at the (expensive) cost of energy. Shattering also becomes less detrimental to you.

On A side note: Forget the dervish. The necro has had an enchantment designed to end/be removed since the beginning (Blood Renewal).

Anyways, I know this is not the biggest issue with elementalists, and a lot of people prefer to talk about the damage/e-management, but defence is a big deal for me. I for one wouldn't mind some more durable options.